28 March 2008

Understanding Islam

Some French are beginning to understand.
Some Brits are beginning to understand.
Some Dutch are wondering if it's already too late.

What about you? Do you understand?

This may be the most important film of our lifetime:

If you agree with Wilders views, show your support by posting the film. Numbers may help save his life.
SURRENDER! (The video has been pulled from the 'net!)
Well, I can't say I'm surprised.
But can you think of a better way to illustrate
how much trouble we face?

I can't.
Updated update!
Curmudgeonly Skeptical is my new hero! (Thanks Old Man.)
You can view the video (for a while at least), at this link.


OlePrairiedog said...

I have been concerned and worried, now, I'm just plain ole fashioned scared right out of my "Ignore it and maybe it will go away" state of mine. Enough so, that I may stock up on plenty of projectiles for my meager arsenal, and plan some hidey holes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but they scared the bejesus out of me.

Anonymous said...

"This may be the most important film of our lifetime"? No. Very much not so.

This is in irresponsible work of a very narrow-minded author. The message is plain and stupid and the storytelling has much more in common with what fascists and fundamentalists do than with what you would expect from an educated and considerate mind.

Even if there might be a message within what the author says, this is exactly how not to bring across such a message. This video has more in common with what he criticises than he might like.

We need to accept the fact that not a certain religion is the problem, but that fundamentalism is problem. And we need to accept that fundamentalism is not only happening in non-western cultures but within our democratic nations as well. This video is the best proof for my words.

I am sorry that I may have to call you a western fundamentalist.

The only, and really the only good thing I can find about this video is the following: Our western culture allows such great things as the freedom of speech and this in turn makes it possible to say what one thinks. Even if it is very narrow-minded.

Freedom of speech does, however, not say that we should agree to anything anyone might say.

Greybeard said...

Thanks for your comment, ZB. Nice to have someone come by and take an opposing position without using abusive language.
Now, if you're still around, please answer this question:
If this, as you hope we'll believe, is a "Fundamentalist" problem, where is the outrage amongst "moderate" Muslims? Can you point to ONE instance where moderate Muslims are in conflict with fundamentalists, trying to recapture their religion?
When I see major indications of moderates in conflict with these crazies, I'll consider your comments to be something other than just words, typed all too easily, for our consumption here.

nec Timide said...

ZB, I can't say I enjoyed watching the video, or that I agree with the total message or the way that it was presented. I do support Greybeard in that I believe freedom of speech is more important than weather I agree with what is said. Of course I, and anyone else can choose not to view the video.

What I do find offensive are groups trying to silence Wilders with death threats, or in your case, by calling for the censure and isolation of his message and those who would carry it. You of course have the right to hold and speak your opinion, but hijacking another Blog on a totally unrelated subject to try to isolate Pichpull is just plain rude.

Greybeard, sorry for talking over you, but I can't find a way to address ZB directly.

Greybeard said...

Hey Nec!
No sweat man...

Anonymous said...

Greybeard, moderate opinions are around in Islamic culture, and there are many of them. The problem is they are difficult to hear compared to the big shouting the not-so-moderate ones do. One example is the great movie Persepolis based on the stories by Marjane Satrapi. One quote from the movie that is also stated in the link to imdb above is: "Fear lulls our minds to sleep." Let's not fear and let's not hate and let's question videos that are created in a way that thinking and asking questions become difficult. We should know better.

Things like these happen the other way round, too: When the war on Iraq started, it was very, very common to find anti-U.S. opinions in many countries here in Europe (where I am from). I have looked into very surprised faces many times when I told people that I knew a lot of folks in the U.S. who were very concerned about military actions. With all the loud talking about the "axis of the evil" and with all the noise the war created (and creates), it did become difficult to hear the naturally less loudly stated opinions still saying different things -- of which there were and are many. So many, actually, that I still believe the decision in favor of starting the war was not supported by the mainstream. You see, it does take some effort to not fall into the mode that knows no better than just divide individual people and cultures into just two categories called all-good and all-evil. Strangely, you find this blinding anti-whatever attitude even where you might expect it the least, that is: Among some more-holy-than-god and oh-so-understanding-and-open-towards-anything pacifist folks.

There is more than black and white and there are no simple answers. The world is too complex to justify simple slogans.

Nec, when you say you "do support Greybeard in that [you] believe freedom of speech is more important than weather (sic!) [you] agree with what is said," you also seem to support my opinion stated in my comment above. I do not find an indication that I called for censorship of the video; I stated pretty much the contrary of a call for censorship. Please also note that I did not ask for the censorship of Greybeard's blog. What I did in the comment section of the blog you are referring to was, simply, ask a question. Where are we when questions may not be asked?

When you see something, say something. After you said something, you can discuss what has been said. When discussing what has been said, we can learn from each other.

When I am given the choice, and luckily I am, I don't like to fight, but I do like to ask questions and I did get a very appropriate and considerate answer over at the other blog that actually made me happy. I don't see how asking a question is plain rude and I don't see why you, Nec, feel the urge to act as an advocate for the other blog's author who seems to be able to explain her own point of view just fine.

Since it does seem like conflicting thoughts are appreciated round here, I would like to mention something related to the video that I find very interesting: in his movie, Wilder used the cartoons that were published in a Danish newspaper a while ago. The cartoons were created by someone who practices the art of satire, a form of criticism that I enjoy very much because it tries to ask questions by using a humourous approach and, mostly, because satire as such does not know any limits. Satire, in most cases, is very clever. When the cartoonist learned that his work was used by Wilder, he stated it was used without permission and demanded it be removed from the movie. This shows the fine line between two very different ways of criticism: Using satire -- like in the cartoons -- and thereby provoking a discussion (and, in this case, very sadly, as well violence by those who take themselves so seriously that they can't cope with satire) and, on the other hand, like Wilder, using plain ole' shouting. Both forms, satire and Wilder's movie, criticise fundamentalism, but the approach is different and requires different levels of intelligence to be understood.

I have always preferred Calvin over Moe and I always will. Stupid thing is: There is no simple answer how to handle all the Moe-like folks. One thing is for sure, though: Moes in a Moe-to-Moe situation will create more harm than good.

nec Timide said...

ZB, if you want to debate this further perhaps you should get a gmail, hotmail or yahoo account, or start your own blog.

I will say this: I was not advocating for Aviatrix, who as you point out is well able to look after herself, I was simply pointing out the very bad behavior of interrupting a conversation in progress to interject your thoughts on a completely unrelated topic.

I just re-read your comment on her blog, several times. I still understand it as an exhortation to remove Pitchpull from her link list, justified by your disagreement with Greybeard's support of the film. I see no other reasonable interpretation. The fact that you did so in a public comment, rather than in a private email leads me to believe you were hoping to enlist the help of others to bring this about. The clever pun on Pitchpull is very telling. Passive aggressive maybe, but censorship certainly.

Mike Poole said...

I had to stop watching the video when they were interviewing the 3 1/2 year old child who was taught that Jews are pigs.

In my life I have seen death and pain firsthand. Mortal suffering has passed before my eyes too many times to count.

Of all the horrible and disgusting things I have seen, nothing compares to the corruption and perversion of a child's mind.

Despite being given the capacity to learn, teach and love each other without limit, we still choose to destroy each other.

And despite all the pain, hate and chaos that we perpetuate, our Father still loves us without condition. He entrusted us with the life of his only Son and we did our best to humiliate, torture and kill Him.

Yet, in spite of all this -- In spite of crusades and jihads and endless abuse of our fellow men simply because they pronounce His name differently -- He still loves us and forgives us.

When we reach our mortal end (and God knows we are doing everything within our power to speed that day up) we will stand before Him and finally understand that in the final analyisis we only had to do ONE SIMPLE THING. We couldn't even put aside our vices and prejudices to follow the one inviolate command, "Love One Another."

By embedding thoughts of hate into the minds of innocent children we limit their capacity to love. Children don't understand what it means to hate, but they understand love from birth.

This video was just like a punch in the stomach. The poisoning of young minds means that the wars and violence we started will perpetuate even though our children won't know or understand why we fight.

Sorry to wax philosophical on you. The things you write about touch us and make us think. I hope just one person will see that video and think about the things they say in front of kids.